Out of the Shadows: Rape Scenes and Consensual Violence in BDSM

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Rape Scenes and Consensual Violence in BDSM

A discussion on IRC with non famous Lauren
June 21, 1998

Raven^ smiles

Raven^: Non-famous Lauren has been involved in the BDSM Community for 5 and a half years. She has given seminars in signal whips, consensual nonconsensuality, and fight scenes. She is about 90% top / 10% bottom.

Raven^: Ladies and Gentleman, please welcome nflauren

nflauren: Thanks Raven. :)

nflauren: And thank you all for being here on such short notice. :)

nflauren: Let me start with a few clarifying terms just so we can all be talking the same language.

nflauren: And if you have a quick clarifying question, you should certainly ask it at any time. But do save bigger questions for later, like sassy said.

nflauren: As a point of vocabularly, I am going to use the words top and bottom instead of dom and sub in this discussion. Although there are some minor differences in usage, for the purpose of this discussion, top means dominant and bottom means submissive. Gender doesn't matter---the top can be male or female, and so can the bottom. Sometimes I use the pronoun "he"---that means he or she.

nflauren: Also, I'm going to use commonly used words like "play" and "scene" to describe any kind of BDSM activity.

nflauren: Using words like "play" doesn't mean this is all fun and games. It's just a word to use to describe BDSM activity as opposed to say, employed work or vanilla sex or a walk alone in the park. :)

nflauren: Any vocabulary questions before I actually begin?

nflauren: Ok. :)

nflauren: We are going to talk about four main topics tonight:

nflauren: 1. What are the potential appeals of rape scenes and consensual violence? Why do people do this?! Why do they fantasize about it? What do bottoms/submissives get out of it? What do tops/dominants get out of it?

nflauren: What is "consensual nonconsensuality?"

nflauren: 2. How do rape scenes differ from rape? Let's get this common question out of the way right off the bat. But I may have to repeat this a few times for newcomers over the course of the discussion.

nflauren: 3. What range of things are we talking about when we refer to rape scenes and consensual violence? Some basic examples from each category. This is all the fun stuff where I will describe some real scenes I've participated in.

nflauren: 4. What are some of the common physical and emotional risks, and what can I do to avoid, reduce, or at least be aware of them? Who is responsible if something goes wrong during or after the scene? What kind of aftercare might be involved? What are

nflauren: some practical tips for setting up or for negotiating rape/abduction/overpowerment scenes?

nflauren: Any other topics I should add to this list before I begin?

nflauren: Ok, let's get to question 1, which was:

nflauren: 1. What are the potential appeals of rape scenes and consensual violence? Etc.

nflauren: Fantasizing about rape and overpowerment seems to be very common. The entire industry of romance novels is based on the apparent appeal of some stranger or "bad" guy (pirate, biker, backwoodsman) overpowering or rescuing a woman, who then suddenly finds she is taken in by his strength, independence of thought, and charms.

nflauren: Although romance literature and the word "rape" itself immediately usually suggest male perpetrators and female victims, please remember that both for real rapes and for rape scenes, gender can be all kinds of things.

nflauren: Lots of males daydream of being overpowered, taken, or raped---by females, or by other males.

nflauren: And females daydream of being taken by females.

nflauren: And all that goes the other direction, too---lots of folks fantasize about being the perpetrator, in all kinds of gender combinations.

nflauren: I've both bottomed and topped rape scenes and scenes that involve consensual violence. As a bottom, I get off on the fear, the anticipation, not knowing how far the top will take things, not knowing if I can hold out. As a top, I get off on the power, the taking, the force, the violence, the ultimate conquest of the bottom. I love when the bottom gives in or submits to it; and for me, the taking of that submission by force adds to my feelings of domination---of being in control.

nflauren: The feelings involved seem to be so common that most vanillas I know have done scenes that involve tussling and mild overpowerment. And it often seems to be a secret thing that puts someone over into orgasm. My guess is that some of this must be biologically hard-wired! But that would be a different talk. :)

nflauren: Sometimes rape scenes go so far during the scene itself, I'm no longer sure why I am doing this. The way this works as a bottom is that it no longer feels consensual to me. The way it works as a top is that I can get worried about my partner's ability to handle what is going on. For both these reasons, prior negotiation is extremely important for rape scenes.

nflauren: Scenes that go past such points---past where the bottom is enjoying things at the time, past where the bottom might ordinarily safeword if safeword is allowed, are sufficiently common that they have a name. The style of play is called "consensual nonconsensuality."

nflauren: Consensual nonconsensuality (sometimes called metaconsent) means consenting in advance to activities that might not be consensual at the time they happen.

nflauren: Why would anyone want to play that way?!

nflauren: Well, there are several answers.

nflauren: One is that for some people it can be a way to explore the unknown. A way to find out how far you can go, presumably with a top you trust very much.

nflauren: Another is that some people get off on being pushed past their limits. That is the fetish---that itself is the kink and what is hot.

nflauren: I've played this way at times both as a bottom and as a top, so if you have questions later, you can ask.

nflauren: <---has to step away a sec---back in under a minute.

nflauren: sassy: Great timing, though. :)

sassy-IP: well this is a good time, thanks lauren

sassy-IP: Is everyone following along with the topic?

* `N8s^sub nods.

^sherry^: yes

* xan{S} too

* roseAZ smiles yuppers following right along..

cali{Cro}: yes

sassy-IP: good, if you have any problems or concerns, anything needs validating immediately, pls msg me....we can stop anytime

nflauren: Thanks, sassy.

sassy-IP: you're welcome, lauren :)

nflauren: For the record, I am a big fan of safewords. But I also think they are just a tool; sometimes they work exactly right, and other times, they are the wrong tool for what the partners want to accomplish. So you negotiate and talk, and work it out. In general, when you are doing consensual nonconsensuality, having a safeword obviates the point. So the bottom gives up the right to safeword. That is damned risky!

nflauren: But that leads to the other reason that some people play that way: many people enjoy risk. And taking calculated risks---like being pushed by a top you trust into realms that might not be ok can be hot for some people.

nflauren: If it's not for you, then obviously, don't do it. :)

nflauren: And doing rape scenes absolutely does not require giving up safeword.

nflauren: Let me move on to question 2. Then in question 3 I will tie these things together more.

nflauren: To remind you about question 2, it was:

nflauren: 2. How do rape scenes differ from rape?

nflauren: First of all, rape scenes are not rapes. Rape scenes are consensual, negotiated BDSM. That's why we call them rape scenes---to make clear the distinction.

nflauren: Obviously, real life rape is a horrible experience for the person who is raped. Although you surely know most of these horrors, I'm going to give a few right now for a reason:

nflauren: And that reason is this:

nflauren: It's worth talking directly with your partner about the potential horrors so that any aspects that would be emotionally or physically bad for either partner can be avoided. Communicating with your partner about what would feel like rape (as opposed to feeling like a rape scene) is a good start in working toward doing a rape scene.

nflauren: You all know this, but it bears repeating because if you are even thinking of doing a rape scene you should be talking to your partner in advance about these things:

nflauren: There are almost always lasting, horrible repercussions for the victim of a rape, ranging from the possibility of contracting an STD, to becoming pregnant, to emotional reactions that can permanently affect a person's ability to become intimate or enjoy sex.

nflauren: And though I am not advocating sympathy for the perpetrator, it is useful to realize that the repercussions are not necessarily only bad for the victim. Let me explain this.

nflauren: In my experience, a fairly large number of adult males feel that in their teens or early 20s they pushed someone into doing sex in ways they regret when they are older, regardless of whether that pushing was hard enough to be called "rape." Or they have done this with marital partners. People don't talk about this much. It's called date rape sometimes these days; but often it doesn't get talked about by either person for years after it happens.

nflauren: For those of you who may have forced an act of unwanted sex in your past, you probably know that there are often repercussions for the perpetrator, too. Those repercussions range from potential jail time, to contracting STDs, to contracting payments for abortions or a lifetime of childcare, to embarrassment and remorse that stay with you your whole life.

nflauren: That last part affects an awful lot of tops I know. The remorse on the part of people's learning about consent and that BDSM is feasible to do consensually is often overpowering.

nflauren: So the moral is: if you are going to do a rape scene, get it right. Do the negotiations, do the talking, and do it up front. And follow up with caring questions afterwards, too.

nflauren: And by the way, men can get raped as well as women. In general, rape doesn't necessarily mean a male perpetrator and a female victim. Males can rape males, females can rape males, females can rape females---all these things do happen.

nflauren: So if you are negotiating a rape scene with someone, don't just assume that because the person is male he has never experienced being overpowered or being raped. In fact, young males get subjected to a lot of fights, bullying, and sometimes sexual

nflauren: innuendo or sexual acts. Sometimes males just talk as if they've never been emotionally harmed. :)

nflauren: Let me take a break before talking about how rape scenes differ from rapes.

nflauren: Anyway, I need a soda. All this talking is making me hoarse. :) Back in a sec.

sassy-IP ponders that remark

sassy-IP: is she going to put her fingers in the soda???

xandria`: osmossis

sassy-IP: ok folks, this is a great opportunity if you have any questions

^sherry^: lol sassy

sassy-IP: We are going to take a short break and Lauren can answer any ?s or concerns you have up to this point

nflauren: I'm back. Any questions before I go on?

sassy-IP: doesn't appear so, lauren

nflauren: :)

nflauren: Ok, let me continue then.

nflauren: The main thing to remember here is that rape scenes are not rape.

nflauren: First and foremost, rape scenes are consensual. The goals of a rape scene include not just satisfying the top's desires, but the bottom's as well. Even if consensual nonconsensuality is involved, so that the bottom accepts that at the time the scene occurs there may be things that the bottom hates or things that are awful, it is negotiated in advance.

nflauren: Oh, ok, I am going to back up a sec and answer a clarifying question.

nflauren: I've been asked two things. First: with regard to "The remorse on the part of people's learning about consent and that BDSM is feasible to do consensually is often overpowering." How/what is overpowering?

nflauren: What is overpowering is the sense of remorse that the perpetrator feels.

nflauren: Let me make this real with an example.

nflauren: I have a lover of four years now, and he once told me of a girlfriend of his when he was in his early 20s.

nflauren: He said to me, "I raped her."

nflauren: And this man is a lover of mine, someone I have known in all the time I have known him to be totally honorable, forthright, concerned about the welfare of his partners.

nflauren: So I said back, "You are being too harsh on yourself!"

nflauren: And he said, "No, I am not. I live with this all the time. I didn't ask her, and though she was my girlfriend and we did sex all the time, I knew in my heart this one time that she didn't want to."

nflauren: But he was turned on, and young, so he didn't stop. And he lives with the regret, which is overpowering for him. Because now he knows how to negotiate, how to communicate, how to talk to his lovers.

sassy-IP: lauren, he was harboring this emotion even after so many years, right?

nflauren: The woman didn't complain.

nflauren: sassy: Right.

sassy-IP nods

nflauren: The point here is that honorable people make mistakes sometimes. And you live with that.

nflauren: Clarifying question 2:

nflauren: Can I clarify how males can be raped by females?

nflauren: I was recently told an interesting story that I believe by someone on IRC. He was enticed up to a room while on a business trip, by a woman he was flirting with.

nflauren: When he entered the room, other women jumped him and tied him up.

nflauren: Now he had some pleasure from what ensued; but in fact they left him alone and tied afterwards. It was apparently a game for them.

nflauren: But he feels ambivalent about it since. Which I can understand.

nflauren: I've been tied and helpless, and it is very complex emotionally. Even when you are enjoying it, the helplessness is a very powerful and frightening feeling.

nflauren: Another way that females can rape males is incestuously.

nflauren: If the female is in a position of power with regard to the male, especially a young male who is easy to arouse, it is quite possible to make a male perform sexually but not want to be involved with the woman in actuality.

nflauren: One way to think about this is to understand that there are females who have been raped quite horribly in real life who have had orgasms in the process.

nflauren: Sometimes what happens physically or what is forced or induced physically is not at all what the person wants emotionally. And dealing with the consequences of "enjoying" it can be even more confusing sometimes than just hating the whole thing in every possible way.

nflauren: And also, females can rape males if there is a size differential. That's probably kind of rare though as a social problem.

nflauren: Ok, let me continue with the talk. Lemme figure out where we were. :)

nflauren: Ok, I was talking about the difference between rape scenes and rape, and I'd talked about the obvious fact that rape scenes are consensual.

nflauren: But the second difference is this: rape scenes differ from rape because in a rape scene the top generally cares about the bottom's welfare. (Else why are these people partners in the first place?!) Not violating the bottom's limits---which usually include lots of unspoken limits (such as not getting the bottom pregnant and not breaking any bones) as well as lots of spoken limits and concerns---is not just the top's contractual obligation, but usually is a form of protection and caring the top wants to provide. It is common for bottoms to be more confident about wanting to go forward in doing a rape scene than the top.

nflauren: One moral of this discussion so far is that one of the first things to ask a partner before going ahead with a rape scene is:

nflauren: Have you ever been raped? Have you ever committed rape or forced unwanted sex on a partner? What repercussions have lasted for you? What kinds of things do we want to avoid if we want to do a rape scene that does not exacerbate or cause any negative repercussions?

nflauren: In fact, as a top I make it a habit to ask any prospective partner if the person has been raped. I find that in fact it can crop up in scenes that in no obvious way involve rape-like elements. But if I am going to do a rape scene, I sure as hell would

nflauren: not do one without asking if the bottom ever has in fact been raped and what the person is looking for in doing a rape scene? What are the limits so as to not trigger horrible memories or other emotional tendernesses? And is the person looking to resolve anything?

cali{Cro}: would you do a rape scene with someone who had been raped?

nflauren: And as a top I have declined doing some rape-scenes if the answers have not been sufficiently thoughtful or clear. I have limits, too, when I top; and triggering someone into needing a year of emotional aftercare is not something I am looking to be responsible for.

nflauren: cali: Yes, if the person was clear about his or her goals and limits. I have done so.

nflauren: cali: But like I just said, I'm extra cautious in advance in those cases.

cali{Cro}: thank you

nflauren: cali: In fact, it is usually the case that those who have been raped do not want to do rape scenes. In my experience.

nflauren: And those who do, tend to be very specific about wanting to have some therapeutic aspect to it, like the challenge of overcoming a fear of such a thing that has haunted the person.

nflauren: Nice question, cali. Thanks.

nflauren: On the side, I do note that a fair percentage of bottoms who have been subject to incest or childhood abuse do seem to like doing consensual nonconsensuality and rape scenes. But my sample there is so small, and there are so many other bottoms who have

nflauren: not been subjected to childhood abuse or incest who also enjoy such scenes, that I am really hesitant about claiming there really is a correlation there.

nflauren: Anyway, I'm going overtime. So let's get to the really hot stuff:

nflauren: 3. What range of things are we talking about when we refer to rape scenes and consensual violence? Some basic examples from each category.

nflauren: Rape scenes cover a very wide range of activities. Some of these activities are entirely non-violent. In fact, for most people, the nonviolent versions are exactly what is desired!

nflauren: For example, tussling with your partner and being pinned down during sex is so common as a hot activity that most vanilla couples I know enjoy doing this on occasion.

nflauren: One of the hottest moments I have ever had sexually was when a partner who was much stronger than me lie leaning over me, ever-so-gently and deliberately gathered my hair in his hand, and then held me down by the hair while he fucked me. I had orgasms from thinking about that for years afterwards. :)

* sassy-IP keeps a few fans for herself

nflauren: Ok, I think you see from my bad typing and grammar that that kind of makes me wander off emotionally. *chuckle*

nflauren: What was great about this was his deliberation and self-confidence. And then the physical control that holding my hair involved. And my not expecting this.

* ^sherry^ squirms...fans herself and breaks the fan ;)

nflauren: Ok, this was before I knew BDSM existed. :)

nflauren: These days I'd have negotiated it. But it was so mild and vanilla that it was fine.

nflauren: Anyway: hint: grabbing someone by the hair can be an incredible turn on. :)

nflauren: More violent kinds of rape scenes entail overpowerment that has a greater element of fear and force. I sometimes call scenes like these "forced sex."

nflauren: Forced sex works like this:

* psyche tries to remember to breath

nflauren: Perhaps the tussling gets a bit rough, or perhaps the top makes it hard for the bottom to breathe for a moment by forcing the bottom's face down into a mattress or pushing his chest up against the bottom's face. Perhaps the sex itself is rough---anal rough---anal penetration or unlubricated forced intercourse or rapid thrusting. Perhaps the top forces his cock into the bottom's mouth to the point that the bottom is gagging, choking, or cannot breathe. Perhaps the bottom gets called names that are humiliating or unsavory in a demeaning tone---slut, bitch, cunt, whore, boy, etc.

LadySteel: *sweat*

nflauren: *laugh* Thanks, guys. I figured that at least I should put something hot in here. :)

* sassy-IP turns down the A/C

* oreoh grins evilly, turning the fan up

sassy-IP: ok...go ahead, we can take the heat

nflauren: (For the record, I am easy to encourage on channel. Just nag me and I'll tell you all about real life scenes. :) )

psyche: love the heat

sassy-IP: !!!!!!??????!!!!!!!

LadySteel: LOL that's very true lauren

sassy-IP: i'm first to nag

nflauren: And perhaps the bottom's immediate satisfaction is not attended to---after the top comes, the scene is done and the bottom's having an orgasm is notsomething the top does any work to see to.

nflauren: <---always jabbers on, always continues, never needs encouragement. *grin*

sassy-IP: :))

nflauren: The implication of the top's simply taking what he/she wants during forced sex is probably one of the keys to why it is hot for many people who do BDSM. The top not only takes control, but uses the bottom to satisfy himself (or herself). Mysterious as it may be, it is well-known that one of the appeals of d/s for the submissive is often the conundrum of becoming aroused merely by dint of the fact that the dominant is in control and satisfying himself/herself. Forced sex falls right into this paradigm.

nflauren: Another variant of more violent rape scenes is to add in some kind of abduction or surprise.

kander: mmm

LadySteel: *fdok*

nflauren: One version of surprise that can often be accomplished by close partners is for the top to enter the bottom's house or apartment without the bottom knowing, late at night, when the bottom is sleeping.

nflauren: One thing to negotiate if you do this kind of scene is what to do if the bottom wakes up in time to call 911. *grin*

nflauren: For the record, if you do not feel like you have the courage to deal with the authorities confidently as a couple if it does ever happen that something goes wrong (and that could mean police or the Emergency Room---think about it!---

nflauren: then you should not be playing in these ways.

nflauren: In practice, though, I know lots of people for whom things have gone wrong enough to involve the authorities---in the form of police checkups or ER visits or personal physician involvement; and in every case I know where the couple takes the initiative, no

nflauren: official consequences have ever occurred.

nflauren: I am always happy to hear more problems though. And every state differs in the U.S. Every province in Canada differs a little, too. And if you are in Europe, countries differ.

nflauren: Abduction scenes can be hot.

nflauren: I'm gonna get to questions soon. But let me give you a few more hot examples.

psyche: please

LadySteel: *sigh* if you must *big grin*

nflauren: One abduction scene I know of involved a woman's being captured by her top and a friend of the top's as she got into her car at an out-of-town airport. Unbeknownst to her, her top flew into town to do this scene on the day she was coming back from a business trip. (She had agreed to having an elementof surprise in advance.) The scene actually was quite difficult, because shestarted to scream and struggle as she was pushed into the back seat of her car by the co-top (who was unknown to her). Keeping her quiet andmaintaining her physical safety was hard to do. But after a short while sherealized that her top was present. Apparently the scene was a big success inthe end.

nflauren: One abduction/rape scene I once participated in involved abducting a partnerof mine and my co-top's from a public restaurant (which happened to be the Beyond the Edge Cafe in Seattle, a kink-friendly cafe). She knew both of us, so the nature of the surprise was not in who we were, but in what we did. Namely we overpowered her, taped her eyes and mouth closed, bound her arms,and marched her right out of the cafe into a waiting van. We transported her to a dungeon and proceeded to have our way with her. (Ok, if you want somedetails, the sex part included his fucking her in the mouth while I fucked her in the cunt with my strapon.)

nflauren: Abductions generally take a lot of planning! Not only do they

sassy-IP groans

nflauren: usually require the help of at least one co-top, but any time you change the location of the scene during the activity itself, you have a lot to think about so as not to attract attention of unknowing bystanders. Not to mention the police! In the scene I

^sherry^ been to Beyond the Edge, but not that night, darn! Hehe

nflauren: just described, a police car passed the van we were in while she was bound and lying on the floor. Being discovered in the act during a scene like this could obviously mean having to do a lot of explaining! And involving bystanders is also not ideal.

nflauren: sassy: Good groan, I hope?

nflauren: sherry: *grin*

LadySteel: she's sorta unconscious

sassy-IP just sits dazed w/a silly grin on her face

LadySteel: see? LOL

sassy-IP: LOL

nflauren: It is bad form to make an innocent vanilla bystander worry about what is going on. The scene Ijust described involved not just waiting till those at the cafe were all known to be BDSM-knowledgeable, but also informing almost everyone there in advance what was about to happen. We also used lookouts to make sure the street was secure before marching her to the van; and my friend checked in with a neighbor to make sure the neighbor would not be alarmed if we were seen marching her "surreptitiously" into the back door of the house.

nflauren: Hang in there: just a few more ideas. :) Then questions.

LadySteel helps sassy sit up straight

psyche slips lauren,,her address

nflauren: More violent still are rape scenes where the bottom is overpowered in a way that involves violent struggle or pain, or that makes the bottom uncomfortable, miserable, humiliated, or possibly left alone for hours. Some forms ofJapanese rope bondage can be done expertly with great speed (this takes a lot of skill and practice, though; being able to work quickly and still keep the bottom's wrists safe from permanent nerve damage is not an easy thing to accomplish). Overpowering someone who is fighting back is a very risky way to play, but very hot for a lot of people. Actually, this is one of my own main playstyles, though. The exhilaration of fighting back, overpowering, or being overpowered can be as hot as any actual culminating sex or beating that follows.

sassy-IP: If you would like to start putting your names in Queue for questions and/or comments, pls do so now

^sherry^ slips lauren her address and a plane ticket ;)

nflauren: (*laugh* I accept the plane ticket, anyway. :)

LadySteel: LOL

nflauren: Denying a person drinking water, denying someone use of the bathroom, or leaving a person in a cold, spidery basement for the night to wonder what is going on and when this will end are potentially very powerful tools for making someone dependent and willing to cooperate. However, abandonment is not something to play with lightly. Not only can physical problems arise---what if someone has a heart attack, asthma attack, or becomes entangled in the rope or chain and gets a bad cramp or cannot breathe?---but emotional reactions to abandonment can be very severe.

nflauren: The most violent kinds of rape scenes I know of are ones where the bottom does not know the perpetrators, and perhaps does not become aware throughout the entire scene that it is a scene as opposed to a real rape. Many tops in the BDSM Community know

nflauren: in the BDSM Community know enough other tops they trust to be able to arrange such a scene if the bottom would really want it. It's kind of rare to want that level of imitation of an actual rape. But it does happen, and I know of one scene and possibly two that were in this category. Basically, the bottom's partner arranged the entire scene (and was in fact silently present but never seen by the bottom by the bottom), contracting with other trusted tops to do the scene itself.

nflauren: Because a large part of the emotional aspect of rape scenes is a combination of fear and a perception of violation, it is possible to create a rape sceneof sorts on IRC or by phone. One way to do this is to do phone calls that are "heavy breathing" at night.

nflauren: Threats, violations of personal issues and a sense of self or dignity, and the mere power of words can be very frightening. There is at least one person on IRC who does this intentionally (and not consensually), threatening to track down and stalk women, rape them, etc. That it is effective as a form of terrifying harassment is something I've experienced firsthand, since this person has targeted me at times in the past. It would certainly be possible to do this kind of thing consensually as a scene, and I am sure people do in fact do it.

nflauren: Ok, that's it for examples. I'm going to go on in a while about common physical and emotional risks and how to negotiate. But first, let's stop for questions.

sassy-IP: ok folks...now's the time to ask those ?s you've been wondering about

nflauren runs for more soda while sassy gets things organized. :)

LadySteel wipes off her chin

sassy-IP looks around to see if they've passed out from the heat

^sherry^ is REALLY missing her Master now hehe

ProvokeMe: I know that rape fantasies are pretty common... but in your experience ... what percentage of submissives actually go through with a rape scene, in whatever form they may desire?

sassy-IP: Lauren will brb to answer your question, ProvokeMe

^sherry^: waiting for Lauren, let me guess..umm 69%? hehe

sassy-IP: does anyone else want to be put in the queue for questions or comments to Lauren?

ProvokeMe: lol sherry

^sherry^: ;)

psyche pokes sherry

nflauren: PM: Let me think.

^sherry^ behaves....nice poke psyche ;)

oreoh: lol sherry

nflauren: PM: I'd say that 90% of peopel I know, vanilla and BDSM do some sort of tussling, pinning, hair-holding, or something of that variety during sex at some point.

nflauren: PM: As for heavier kinds of rape scenes, from forced sex to full-fledged rape scenes involving strangers to the bottom, the numbers get thinner the heavier the kind of play.

nflauren: PM: I think it is very common for bottoms to fantasize rape and rapes scenes; less common to carry them out, though. Maybe 25% carry out some version of these things? Just a ballpark guess.

nflauren: PM: I know that the way I play, which involves fight scenes, consensual nonconsuality, and forced sex on the heavier end of the spectrum, is pretty small numbers---maybe down to 10%.

ProvokeMe: I was just wondering... thank you

nflauren: PM: No problem. I wish I knew the statistics myself.

nflauren: sassy: Do you have a question?

sassy-IP: yup

sassy-IP: if someone has been raped previously and due to the repercussions of the crime, can no longer experience an orgasmmmmmmm

sassy-IP: What, if anything, can be done in a D/s relationship to help this situation....would engaging in rape play help?

nflauren: sassy: Wow.

nflauren: Well, first, I think this is highly individualized.

nflauren: And I think that this kind of thing almost has to be "bottom led." Meaning that the top has to follow the bottom's lead about where the bottom thinks the play should explore.

sassy-IP: is it rape play something that should NOT be considered??? this might be leading into your next part of discussion

nflauren: Not being able to experience orgasm is something that is a major lifetime problem. Something that sex therapists do not know well how to deal with. So it could be that caring partners might find paths to do this. But I sure do not know any standard ways

nflauren: to go about it; it's kind of a question of exploration and following what feels right.

nflauren: sassy: Well, I guess I'd consider anything if the partners jointly felt it might help. If the expected benefits outweigh the expected costs, go for it. :)

nflauren: Which doesn't mean that the expected costs and risks should not be carefully considered.

sassy-IP: what about the psychological ramifications?

sassy-IP has asked her quota for one ? mark....i'll get back in line and let you continue on *smile*

nflauren: Myself, I'd guess that unless the bottom had a really good case that using rape to solve a problem that has persisted from a rape would work or feels right, I'd be pretty hesitant.

sassy-IP: thanks lauren :)

nflauren: If the issue is orgasm, I'd be more inclined to work with more traditional routes---gentleness, touch, teasing, cuddling, relaxing the person to the point where orgasm just happens unexpectedly.

nflauren: [done with that question]

MindFul1: I appreciate the discussion. I'm muscular and powerful and have always been forceful in sex, and a couple of women have wanted me to come in and overpower them at night. But now I know that at some point I want to negotiate something much stronger with a partner, including real coercion and some violence like face slapping. The injection of controlled brutality would be exciting. Thanks for helping me to think about this, about planning it

nflauren: MindFul1: *nod* My pleasure. And yes, I am well familiar with the problem that in fact it is often harder on tops---especially male tops!---sometimes to let go with such things. There is a lot of fear of damaging someone you care for, not to mention killing off a relationship you care about.

nflauren: Let me ask a question of the audience: who here has done a rape scene? Top or bottom. Or forced sex or tussling ending in sex?

LadySteel: I have, as bottom

Samos nods

nflauren: Anything you think might be in this category.

MindFul1: yes, I think if the limits were negotiated, but the bottom did not know *when* it would happen, the results could be *very* exciting.

nflauren: Mindful1: Exactly.

MastrMars: one aspeci of force/rape sex in a D/s vein is when I take a submissive and secure her in bondage and tell her she can fight as hard as she wants

nflauren: Mindful1: It's common for rape scenes to agree that the top can do it unexpectedly any time in the coming year. :)

nflauren: [done]

nflauren: Mars: *nod* That works.

MastrMars: and that it will do her no good, because she will submit and she has no choice in the matter

sassy-IP groans again

nflauren: Mars: Myself, I really enjoy not securing the person first. I like doing the takedown or the fight scene from a standing or kneeling start. But that is risky, physically.

MastrMars: this allows the submissive to fight and allows me to take her past her fight into surrender

nflauren: Mars: *nod* Yep.

psyche: i have done a scene such as these

nflauren: psyche: Like Mars or like me?

MastrMars: I didn't say the sub didn't fight being put into bondage, that is part of the surrender as well

nflauren: Mars: *nod*

MastrMars: :)

MastrMars: done

nflauren: [done]

sassy-IP: Ladies and Gentlemen, we are going to open the floor for discussion now, please feel free to talk at anytime.

psyche: lauren,,,actually,,it was much like you

nflauren: psyche: *nod* Ok, just checking.

nflauren: While you folks think up questions, I'm going to jabber a bit about some practical tips about negotiating and arranging rape scenes.

LadySteel: I knew this would be good lauren

nflauren: But just interrupt with questions.

MastrMars: ??

sassy-IP kicks back in her beanbag and enjoys a cool glass of water

nflauren: One common protection for both partners is to put some of the agreements in writing. This is probably a more useful protection for the top than the bottom when it comes to rape scenes. However, it can be useful for the bottom, too; and it can help both

sassy-IP: pls, MastrMars, go ahead

nflauren: parties think more clearly about what they have agreed to.

nflauren: Mars: Yes, please ask.

MastrMars: just a safety point , earlier you mentioned a rape scene

MastrMars: when you and another top took a lady together

MastrMars: this can be dangerous, since a female be put in harm with both opening being taken

MastrMars: done

nflauren: Mars: Hmmm. What is the particular harm you have in mind? I guess that oral plus vaginal combinations are common in porn films; and pretty common in fantasy life. I've done them from both top and bottom (and vanilla!) situations; I am not sure what extr

nflauren: extra dangers you have in mind. Can you clarify this?

MastrMars: just the novice being over powered and losing control and choking

nflauren: Mars: Ah, ok. Well, yeah, but the real issue there is forced fallatio, I think, not necessarily the combination aspect.

sassy-IP: actually, i can see where some physical damage could be done if a person is being taken, forcefully, from both ends

nflauren: Forced fellatio is incredibly hot stuff for some people. The first time I had this done to me I was stunned how turned on I was. But it is also very complicated. There is a heavy breath control element. And the likelihood of gagging, or vomiting.

sassy-IP: that's something that i would think the tops would keep in mind as to the safety of their bottom

MastrMars: the issue really is the Tops, if they are not as experienced as you or your friend

nflauren: Making the bottom gag can be pretty hot for the top. I've done that as a top (with my strapon), and I love it. And making the bottom vomit can be a form of humiliation.

nflauren: Mars: *nod* Yes, I agree---it takes some practice.

sassy-IP crinkles on the vomit part...how embarrassing

MastrMars: safety first, that's all, even in a forced/rape scene

nflauren: sassy: I've never heard of problems with both ends stuff. I can imagine if the person had a back problem, though, it could be risky.

MastrMars: done

sassy-IP: make that crinkling my nose *g*

nflauren: sassy: *grin* That's the point.

sassy-IP: yeah, i got that point

nflauren: [done]; and next Kttn's excellent question. Then sherry.

TM`sKttN: lauren, i would think that the submissive would have to give up a tremendous amount of control for this to work... is this negotiated or do you find it happens solely because she desires it so greatly?

nflauren: This is a super question. And an interesting one.

nflauren: I'm very small. I'm petite, female, and I don't weigh a lot. Most of my bottoms outmass me and are taller than me.

nflauren: So how can I overpower them?!

nflauren: The answer is complicated and depends on the bottom. And the top. :)

nflauren: In general, when I start working with someone who is going to do fight scenes with me, I start with the person partially bound. Hands bound, or feet bound. Or in some cases, just blindfolded (which is a surprisingly good handicap).

nflauren: This lets me and the bottom work out how the bottom fights under duress.

nflauren: Some people use pinching, biting, scratching, grabbing; some use legs, some use elbows, some use heads...

nflauren: Some backtalk, some panic....

nflauren: When we figure out what the bottom does under stress, generally I find I can outwit the person.

nflauren: But there is a large element of d/s that is always involved. Namely, bottoms generally want to bottom.

nflauren: And I use that.

oreoh grins evilly

nflauren: I don't necessarily know how to teach someone else how to use it---it's instinct.

nflauren: But I do know that for the most part, bottoms do not want to harm their tops or embarrass their tops. So they make things feasible if things get out of line.

nflauren: I know that when I bottom to fight scenes, it's enough for me to kind of let the top know he was vulnerable. :) I don't have to complete the "win."

nflauren: I just kind of let the top know I could have won.

nflauren: KttN: Does that help answer the question?

TM`sKttN: yes it does, thanks:)

TM`sKttN: thanks i can see where the physical would release the emotional control.

^sherry^: what about aftercare, lets say the sub feels guilty later even tho she truly desired it, how would a Top help her over come it? has this happened?

nflauren: sherry: Another good question, and a hard one. Ideally, the partners work both before and after to figure out responsiblities if they misjudge.

nflauren: [done with regard to Kttn's question, then]

nflauren: sherry: I think with questions of guilt or subsequent feelings of regret of any kind, the best thing the top can do is listen.

nflauren: Listen caringly and over and over again. And not project or make light of the feelings of guilt.

^sherry^: i worry that if i negotiated so much, it takes away from the suspense but then again, it's needed to be able to be done right..a fine line

nflauren: I don't know anyone who has felt what I would consider to be "guilty" after doing a consensually negotiated rape scene. I do know that lots of times things do go over the top. Which risk was the whole point. So there are often a lot of discussions afterwards.

nflauren: sherry: Yep, a fine line.

^sherry^: i see :)

nflauren: sherry: The bottom has to be responsible enough to make at least reasonbable guesses about his or her ability to recuperate.

nflauren: At least, that is my rule of thumb.

^sherry^: yes

^sherry^: thanks lauren :)

nflauren: [done, sherry, then.]

oreoh: Marcuss: thanks lauren.. we needed anew descriptive word for oreoh.. reasonbable works ;)

nflauren: Though sherry's question is really pretty complicated.

nflauren: oreoh: *laugh*

^sherry^: i do think rape-scenes are just that, complicated, but seems well worth the risk :)))) <done>

nflauren: sherry: AFtercare when peopel are doing consensual nonconsensuality is a very complicated business.

^sherry^ adds rape scene to her bdsm list now ;)

^sherry^: thanks again lauren....

nflauren: As a bottom I know I recuperate well on my own and I don't lean too much on my tops. But as a top I am careful to make clear in advance to my bottoms that I have a life, and while I will bend over backwards for them if things go wrong that were not foreseen by either of us, or that are conversational issues where they need ongoing occasional reassurance, I cannot usually commit to 18 hour days of aftercare for 6 months.

nflauren: But I have, on occasion, done just that for short periods of time. Thankfully with very happy endings for the bottom.

^sherry^ smiles

nflauren: [done, sherry]

nflauren: I have another point to make with regard to negotiations of these kinds of scenes:

sassy-IP: i would think, lauren, that not everyone, although rape is appealing, should engage in this type of play

nflauren: Actually, this was one of the practical suggestions I never got to in Question 4 of my original outline (though I have covered most of those things by now.)

nflauren: Another common protection is for a top to not be the one to suggest such a scene in the first place. Letting the bottom lead the way in terms of suggesting an interest in doing a rape scene avoids subtle pressures on the bottom, who could conceivably agree to something unwanted just in order toplease the top. Although it is the bottom's responsibility not to violate himself or herself in such a way, in some circumstances "freely given consent" can be an elusive concept. Rape scenes are not alone in risking crossing this kind of line.

nflauren: sassy: Good point.

nflauren: sassy: Not everything a person fantasizes is good to carry out. In your fantasies you have a lot of control over the minute variations and outcomes. But in real life, things are not going to work out exactly like your fantasies.

sassy-IP nods

nflauren: That's another thing each person has to take his or her own responsibility to judge.

sassy-IP: i just think that the point needs to be made, just as you did, our fantasies are controlled....a rape scene isn't going to be 100% controlled

nflauren: Continuing with aftercare, it is the case that in scenes that go over limits (even if the bottom didn't even know those things were limits till they got violated),

nflauren: recuperations can take months.

favthing: it is that very loss of control that makes the rape scene so exciting

nflauren: I bottomed to a very heavy breath control scene almost two years ago now, and I continue to have some fears of doing breath control at levels that, before that scene, caused me no panic at all. I agreed to taking that risk; and in fact I am fascinated that this happened to me. And it is kind of hot for me. (If you want to see the idea, I have a fictional story about this kind of thing on my web site).

nflauren: But how long these reactions last can be very disturbing and frightening. It is not something to toy with without thinking about it.

nflauren: fav: *nod* Agreed.

nflauren: I do kind of play with making my bottoms fear things in such ways, or be conditioned to fear things. It's a very risky play style, though; not something I recommend to people unless they know others who they can share experiences with.

nflauren: I had the good fortune (or bad luck, depending on your perspective) that my mentor's mentor has a specialty in conditioning fears.... So I have learned a lot. From his successes and his mistakes.

nflauren: Ok, I've been informed that we can wrap this up. And in fact, I think I've hit the main points I wanted to hit. I'm available on channel if you have followup questions; or in email if you must. :) nflauren@servtech.com.

sassy-IP: lauren, pls feel free to stay and talk :)

`N8s^sub: thank you lauren ... for a wonderful discussion. :)

nflauren: Thanks sassy, so much! This was a great opportunity.

cali{Cro}: thank you lauren

nflauren: sassy: Oh, cool! I am always happy to stay and jabber on. *grin*

favthing: <---thanks lauren for the fantastic session

sassy-IP: lauren, thank-you!! you did a wonderful job

* MindFul1 applauds

favthing: well done lauren--bravo

cinnamon^: Thank you, nflauren....wonderful discussion...very informative...learned a lot

nflauren: Thanks, cali, fav, Mindful. Thank you all for your patience. :)

MindFul1: great discussion!

sassy-IP> i do want ppl to realize that we are aware it is a work night and they may come and go as they need

* nflauren smiles. :)

nflauren: My pleasure; and thank you all again.

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